TILP #09: The practical and emotional sides of investing w/ Clay Finck
00:02.50
ilm
Clay Fink thanks for ah, joining me here today. Looking forward to talking to. You should be a lot of fun.
00:09.40
Clay
Well Jim ah I've hosted a ton of podcasts and you've been on a ton of podcasts. So it's interesting to turn the tables and ah you know reverse the roles for this one.
00:19.70
ilm
The turntables have yeah this would be thispi a lot of fun. Yeah, think you you host a small show. Um that that's out there. So hopefully also help get your name out to the crowd and maybe get some increase of viewership of your your little thing.
00:37.37
Clay
Um, yeah, hopefully.
00:39.26
ilm
Yeah, well I'll do what I can no well yeah so clay. Ah yeah, if you want to just tell us about yourself you what you do and where you're at what you enjoy and we can. We can go from there.
00:53.90
Clay
Sure? Um Clay fink host of we study billionaires and my prior life I worked in insurance for 4 years and knew that that route wasn't I wasn't what I wanted to do ah for the rest of my life and. Ah, thankfully tip had an opportunity come up for their millennial vesting show and I talked with Jim on that show a couple of times and I recommend people check out those conversations where we talk about financial planning bitcoin money. Ah everything else and ah. Yeah, so I was host of millennial vesting for a year after I transitioned out of insurance and then ah been a host on we study billionaires for just over a year now and ah yeah, it's been the time of my life and then Jim we've we've gone back and forth too on ah the community I helped tip recently launch. Ah, back in April it's called the tip mastermind community and we have just over eighty members there and I'm kind of just helping our many of our audience members just kind of get connected with each other just another learning avenue outside the podcast where people can get more personalized. Information from others or just kind of keep in touch with others on what's happening and how others are managing their portfolios. So ah, yeah, it's been ah the time of my life working with ah tip for just over the past two years
02:14.70
ilm
Yeah, this will be fun. You've had an opportunity to talk with so many smart people and glean so many nuggets that's why I'd like to sort of camp on that today just hearing some of your favorite conversations and thinkers and. Key takeaways that you've had over the years um yeah let's let's let's go there so I guess first off, what for those who don't know what is the investor' podcast and we study billionaires like what are you usually talking about what's that what does that look like.
02:48.40
Clay
Yeah, so ah, tip is sort of going gone through these different phases. Initially it was Preston and st they started we the we study billionaire show in 2014 and ah. You know for years. It was just a weekly hobby almost and then um, all of a sudden the podcasting space matured it developed more and more people started listening to podcasts a advertisers started to get interested and presstonig realized the incredible asset that they were sitting on. So around 20192020 has started to turn into a real business for them where they could start hiring people. They could start you know, developing a process for taking on advertisers and building a business around the the podcast and then ah, that's led to tip launching other shows. Led to a news. They have a newsletter now that has over 35000 subscribers. So ah, the the showss outside of we study billionaires is ah obviously Preston piss yourself bitcoin fundamentals who you just had on. Your show 1 of the first episodes and then we have William Greene hosting our richer wiser happier series where he brings on you know these you know legendary investors and many of them are billionaires that he's developed relationships with for the past ten twenty years he had a long career.
04:18.32
Clay
As a journalist interviewing these types of people. The Bill Miller's the you know Peter Lynch's of the world and ah so he's been an incredible asset to tip in addition to our team and then um, we also have a millennial vesting show that Jim you and I chatted on. Um, that's on a different podcast feed. But yeah on the we study billionaires feed. We mainly talk a lot about maybe just business and general in general or we talk a lot about stock investing so that's mainly stegan I nowadays and ah, yeah, and then. Preston and William Show are also on that same feed too. So yeah, so subscribers to that feed are ah, kind of getting a host of different viewpoints perspectives and such.
05:07.87
ilm
So You let's go here actually um, where so you you like me I live in this weird dichotomous world of of bitcoin and thinking about macroeconomics and monetary and fiscal policy. I Think that makes a lot sense and it's fun and intriguing and I think if you do not pay attention to these things, especially if you're working in the money industry are sort of bearing your head in the sand. But also so I live in this this place. But Also I'm a financial planner in a very traditional sense I'm a certified financial planner. And most most cfps out there tend to sort of bury their head in the sand and they say that hey if you're if you're considering the macroeconomic environment you're trying to time the Market. That's an evil thing to do and you should You should be on autopilot in totality in the moment you look you look up, you're you're you're foolish. So for you, it seems that you also live in it in a different but also in a dichotomous world of very staunch traditionalism of investing you're talking to people who have built businesses and ah you know you're talking about like valuation of company stocks. But then also.
06:18.79
Clay
Um.
06:19.59
ilm
I mean you and I just hung out for a week in tell you I Colorado with a bunch of crazies talking about bitcoin and macroeconomics which is they're they're certainly not in contrast. It can seem that they are a lot of people who especially if you're entrenched in the traditional world. You might think that bitcoin is the intenthesis of that which I would argue. It's not It's actually. Ah, going to be a restoration of the health of that. Um, but again the perception is these things are are conflicting. So for you. How how have you navigated living in this traditional sense but also living in this like I own bitcoin to and where to put your money in those conversations and is it.
06:45.25
Clay
Here.
06:56.87
Clay
Um.
06:58.63
ilm
You have these conversations with traditional managers. What's going through your head when they when they talk about ways of viewing money in traditional sense versus like you know viewing it as a bitcoin or press and pitch side of things that was like 8 questions and 1
07:12.45
Clay
Yeah, yeah, um I Love that you went this direction because ah yeah, you and I are definitely in those worlds where you're talking with financial planners and they want nothing to do with bitcoin and I'm talking with ah fund managers who could care less about it. And ah, you know everyone has their own perspective on it. Um, one of the interesting things is yeah I have this mastermind community that I'm ah leading for tip and many people in the group do own bitcoin. But like the people joining they joined because they want to talk stocks and it's just something that is intellectually stimulating for them is something they enjoy doing and bitcoin May or may not be a part of that and I mentioned to you earlier that? ah. Bitcoin. It's kind of this thing. Ah for me personally like it's a part of my portfolio and it's kind of just a set it and forget it type thing you know I don't care if it drops by 50% tomorrow I don't care if it goes up by 50% tomorrow. Um, although that would be nice. Um, you know, no matter what. Happens really on the upside or downside I plan on just hanging on to it for the long run and that's kind of the way I view it and you know many people in the group that I'm talking to kind of view it the same way in that they believe in it long-term but they don't want to have 100% of their assets.
08:40.52
Clay
And this 1 thing and that's kind of the camp I'm in like you know I want a investment approach and investment style that allows me to sleep well at night it allows me to ah you know not have to worry about checking my investments all the time. So for me, that's led to me. You know, have a portion of my investment assets in bitcoin. And then a good portion is also invested in stocks and ah, that's the approach I feel like is most appropriate for me. It's what I'm most comfortable with and um I just honestly enjoy looking at companies and talking about companies with others and um.
09:18.65
Clay
You know, being a host on the show I've wanted to be very mindful of you know, not be not um, being so not thinking in such absolute terms and thinking that bitcoin's going to take over the world or um, a certain company is going to do amazing. Um, so diversification I think is something that's really important for me and um, it's just an approach to that I think just works well with ah you know what? my goals are what my temperament is and you know where I want. You know to be 102030 years down the road financially and then also on the macro point of view. Um I thought that this might come up today. So I I jotted down some notes on ah some points I wanted to make related to macro. Um I think I think it's certainly. Important and it you know drives many things but you know determining you know how the economy is going to act in the next one two 3 years or where interest rates are going to go and then how that ends up impacting markets is incredibly difficult if not impossible and. You know I think in 2021 if you wouldve told a lot of these macro forecasters that interest rates were going to be 5 % in 2023 mortgage rates were going to be 8% the fed would have sold off $1000000000000 off their balance sheet I I mean they would have told you you're in crazy land and like that would just destroy the markets yet.
10:52.56
Clay
You know stocks you know haven't crashed like they probably thought they would and you know these simple correlation causation if x then y thinking um can be very dangerous and I wish life were at were that simple and the world were that. You know, easy to predict. But ah we live in a very complex world and that's just something I've kind of come come to terms with this year and um, yeah I just try and focus on things I can control and things I feel like I have an edge in and part of that when it comes to like. Investing in stocks is just finding a handful of really great businesses buying them at what I think are reasonable prices and then just hanging on to them because I think we just live in a really short-term world world where people are just really impatient and a lot of people aren't willing to ah, buy these and hang on to them. Ah, for a really long time and then another point I wanted to make is that if you look at like the best investors with like credible long-term track records and say you pull 20 or 25 of them you might find like 1 or 2 that. You know achieve the results they did based on making macro predictions like Stan Drak and Miller is one that comes to mind but like most ah, mostly the other ones were all almost all of them I would say were're stock investors. So I think that also points to how difficult it is to predict the macro.
12:24.91
Clay
I guess not only predict the macro but also predict how that impacts the markets because you know tons of people have made accurate predictions but in terms of how that affects their portfolio. It just makes it so much harder in my view. So yeah, it's just my general thoughts on some of the things I've learned.
12:37.25
ilm
Yeah I mean it's it's it's not too. It's not. It's not too hard to be hard to be right? eventually? Yeah I could be right eventually about most things there will be a flood in Texas like all right like 15 years from now. It's like I told you so it's like dude.
12:47.28
Clay
And.
12:56.52
Clay
Um, yeah.
12:57.10
ilm
I've been sitting in a raff with a life jacket on for the last fifteen years I've wasted a lot of time and that's I mean ah Warren Buffett a very popular saying of his is what the ah the market can stay ah irrational longer than you can stay solvent I probably just butchered that. But yeah, it's this. It's this thought of.
13:11.23
Clay
We hear.
13:16.97
ilm
How not only how right are you? But how right are you in the time frames you're considering and how do you place that into what you're owning your yes what you're owning but also like where your head's at I like that you mentioned that ah that you know you wouldn to be able to sleep all at night as well. That's something I speak to regularly is like.
13:30.97
Clay
Who.
13:36.68
ilm
You're not ah, you're not a spreadsheet or in a math equation like we're not trying to optimize you as an excel document your person with emotions and convictions and with desires and goals and you have to consider these things that that goes into like how do you invest it also goes into like note debt. It's like hey Jim like I have I had this.
13:40.29
Clay
He.
13:56.12
ilm
Had this debt should I pay it off and it's like well we could we can look at the math we could break that down and sometimes that's really important like if some people really need to. We have to optimize spreadsheet wise should you pay out this debt or not but a lot of times. It's less that it's more of like yeah look mathematically, you should pay off this debt. Because of x like the risk free return right? now is 5% and your industry on your debt is your mortgage is two and a half percent so yeah math would say don't pay that thing off keep that as long as possible. But yeah, if you're sitting here. It's like look I I just don't like debt and I can afford to pay it off and it really wouldn't change my life at all. It's like cool. Well. I hope you sleep well and let's let's get that thing taken care of so I like we've got to. We've got to sit on that with with portfolio as well. That's where you know people get caught up gosh. There was a ah, there's a study that was done several years ago that was comparing investment versus investor returns.
14:50.38
Clay
N.
14:51.27
ilm
And there is a ah, pretty good gap between the 2 and that that gap they've labeled the they've labeled the behavior gap the the behavior gap is why is there this chasm of a few percent between these investments. But then the people who invested in those underlying investments and that can be related to.
15:00.10
Clay
Ehe.
15:10.67
ilm
Behaviors and that's what's where it's really important to think through if you're going to buy something you better have high conviction of what you're buying or at least be willing to stay put if otherwise you're gonna be like someone who goes you can go to a ah you know you go to 6 flags or Disney world and you get out a roller coastaer. You're you're sitting outside of line of a roller coastaster.
15:13.80
Clay
Um, yeah.
15:29.74
ilm
You see that wow those people look like they're having fun doing it and all my friends want to do the roller coastaer I don't really like those but I guess I'll do it myself and you get on and you start going up. It's you're going up this thing and you start going this massive dip and you realize as you're going down or oh the first loop you realize you know this this isn't really for me. You take off your seatbelt. That's the worst time to take off your seatbelt. So you you want to think through is this something I can tolerate prior to getting on the ride now. Obviously this this equation or this ah this analogy falls apart when we introduce like Enron. It's like look if you own enron I don't care if you're going around the loop or not, you probably should go ahead and bail.
15:56.25
Clay
In here.
16:05.62
Clay
So e.
16:07.39
ilm
Um, but if you're sitting on something that's relatively sound. Um, you know you you want to consider like should I take off my seatbel right now and and risk massive hurt. Um, or why? why do I buy this thing and it would do people go long ways and just help bridge that gap or close the gap of this behavior gap. If We just thought through not just the investments but also my yeah, how sweaty will my hands be while I'm sitting on this roller Coastaster. So yeah, again, you're not, You're not an equation and I like that you're you're a good guy clay.
16:36.13
Clay
Yeah, you yeah, you ah brought up some really great points. There. Ah, one of the interviews I had ah is with Chris Mayer he mentioned that even the great investors they trail the market. 1 third of the time so say over a 10 year period they might drastically outperform but there's going to be 2 or 3 of those years where they're going to be and underperforming and that points to the behavior gap you have where people tend to chase. Whatever's hot and then they bail on whatever's not doing so hot.
16:55.40
ilm
Um, shoot.
17:11.40
Clay
So They're just like making their decisions based on whatever prices are doing when in reality the great investors they understand a process they're sticking to it. Um, and then they're sticking with that process. You know when things aren't going their way. They're sticking with it and Understanding. You know why. Um, essentially they have a thesis on why it is ah their investments are going to work over the longer term and ah yeah, it kind of points to what I was saying earlier where people are tend to be too impatient. They tend to make changes too often to their portfolios and just kind of. Ah, Fall Prey to all these biases that you're mentioning.
17:54.96
ilm
there's there's ah there's a nice equilibrium of conviction and patience but also agility that's in in the interview with with Preston I spoke to him about this gentleman who has been managing money for since the early eighty s. And I was talking with them a few years back and you mentioned that his most of his clients are sitting in like 80% bonds 20% equity portfolios and I asked him about his thoughts on the risk of owning such things and he said that well look I've look I've I've done really? Well I've been doing this since 1982 and that's where yes conviction.
18:20.97
Clay
Okay.
18:26.48
Clay
Here.
18:31.26
ilm
Is is good and all ah but it better be founded in something not just recency bias. Ah, but actual a a good ah sound thesis and so yeah, there's this this this healthy marrying of agility and critical thinking. And it can't be based off critical thinking 1 time based off of one thought I had but does it still make sense and that's where investing is really interesting. You run into so much so many biases something I hear regularly for for especially like a new client will come on and they'll own.
18:51.80
Clay
Again.
19:05.24
ilm
We'll be looking at their portfolio that they've owned prior to working with us and a lot of times they'll own something that they've owned for a really long time and this thing maybe it's down a lot. Maybe it's a stock they bought several years back and it's down 40% and it's like hey man I really want to I don't want to sell it yet I just want to wait for that to get back to break. Even.
19:11.13
Clay
Your head.
19:24.14
ilm
And then we can go invest it in something else. It's like okay 1 we can look at this from so many directions if it's in a taxable account. Okay, well we can harvest the losses now and offset capital gains or offset some earned income like why like that that makes sense too.
19:25.10
Clay
Yeah, um.
19:41.16
ilm
Do you want to own this thing versus owning something else because you think that during this timeframe this thing that's down 40% will outperform the other asset that we would otherwise sell it into or is it because you are so anchored into getting back to your initial purchase price that you'll wait out whatever time it is because then we are back to a simple math equation like. Will X outperform y over this time Again. We don't know but we're guessing It's like yeah I own this hot pile of garbage but man I want this thing to get back to where it was so I don't feel bad about myself Again. There's just so many weird biases here that we succumb to and that's where you've you've had an opportunity to talk with so many smart people who.
20:08.95
Clay
You hear you replace the box.
20:19.13
ilm
I Think a big part of this is being aware like I know for me I know that I'm not that smart about most things. So I I try not to have these biases because I at least am familiar withized I can succumb to I think it's a lot of it. It's just being aware of what you your downfalls can be.
20:22.75
Clay
Um, in her name.
20:37.66
ilm
And I think that's that's ah, that's a big part of being smart is realizing what you're dumb in in a sense and I think that's those are some of the hard lessons of life learning these things.
20:41.36
Clay
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, is it the dunning Kruger effect or feels like you know a lot in the early stages and then it like totally drops off and then goes goes back up. Ah yeah, speaking with so many smart people I think ah it has a way of really humbling you. And um, just making you humble in what you think you know about the world and the assumptions you make because ah people want to feel like they know what the future holds and they want to you know, follow people that make these predictions on what's going to happen when in reality. Yeah.
21:09.50
ilm
Um.
21:26.35
Clay
We Really don't know what's going to happen to a lot of things. Um, yeah, and it really just makes me humble and the ah fund manager you mentioned with the ah yeah, that was heavily weighted towards bonds. Ah, it reminds me of you know, kind of the inertia. Of people kind of find a process they find out that process works and then it's just like people have a really tough time sometimes to adapt. Ah when it's absolutely necessary to do do so and you know there's so much evidence that they need to rethink how they approach things.
22:03.73
ilm
I Heard Ah yesterday I was listen to a podcast and the the guy was I'll remember how it came up but he mentioned just this ability like over time what wisdom and things you can glean and what he mentioned was. When you're young when you're young, you think that you're real strong. You know like I have my Oldest. He just turns six this week and he always talks about all my all my boys regularly. They show me their muscle all the time and how strong they are So when you're little you think that you're stronger than you are. And there's a like there's a point in life that you realize you're not as strong as you thought you were and ah you learned some lessons that way. But then you also go to a point later on in life. You realize that being really strong isn't really that important and I think those are different Phases. We all go through from you know muscles but also like. These other things we put such an emphasis on like oh I I you know whatever I'm going to be rich. It's like man if when I when I zoom out you know, maybe I don't have as much as everyone else does and then you later gone. It's like hey these things aren't even that important like why did I chase this and ah, just really really sobering. Especially.
23:00.64
Clay
Who.
23:12.32
ilm
Yeah, yeah mean there's there's some. There's some wealthy people who are really happy and that's awesome. There's other pit wealthy people who are miserable and that's sad. Um, but really what it comes down to is you can learn early that ah all that stuff at the end of day is not going to make you happy or miserable necessarily like that's that's a good lesson to learn.
23:21.65
Clay
Um, in here.
23:30.57
ilm
But also recognizing other lessons like you know being ah being ah agile enough to recognize like okay I've I've owned this thing forever therefore it keep doing what it'll keep doing well like man you need to progress your your your frame of reference around these things. So yeah I think there's just it'd been. I'd love to see people and you're in ah, you're an amazing position that you can glean wisdom from other people that having to learn these lessons the hard way yourself and ah I try to keep an open eye where I can glean those lessons themselves that way I'm not having to encounter and learn everything the the tough way. What are some of your favorite takeaways from conversations you've have. You've had where it's like oh that's that was a that was a good lesson to learn. Maybe it's a hard lesson or a fun one. But ah I'm going to I'm going to put that one in my back pocket I don't have to navigate that myself. But I can at least take the lesson away is or what are some of your favorite things. You've you've got to glean over the years
24:24.81
Clay
That's a good question. Um, a lot of them are related to what we mentioned of just like being humble and ah being ah, really mindful of you know what your biases are and um.
24:41.67
Clay
Yeah, just being humble in what it is you think you know, but ah, I'm reminded of a conversation I had ah last week with the fund manager and it kind of ah reminded me again just on the the true power of compounding and how it relates to investing and. Um, I'm sure you're aware of this and with all the people you speak to and you know they want to they want to do all these things today which is like great you know, but also recognizing the power of that long-term compounding. So it's kind of marrying the 2 of you know what do you truly value in life. And then recognizing the sort of rewards that compounding can give you later on down the road ah years ahead and I'm sure. Yeah that mixes in with a lot of the conversations you've had and we've talked to talked about it on the millennial vesting show. But the compounding example he gave me he ah he had said that compounding is convex on the upside in concave on the downside and you know I asked him to sort of explain what this means and he gave an example of say you have 2 investments.
25:45.15
ilm
K.
25:54.70
Clay
They both started a hundred dollars the first one is an incredible investment say you pick a stock and it compounds by 26% for 10 years and then the second the second investment compounds by negative 26% for 10 years So ah, over that 10 p. 10 year period one investment ends up becoming a multi-bagger and then the other one essentially becomes like a 0 but since compounding is convex on the upside in concave on the downside. Your upside is essentially um, unlimited when an investment does well and it's. Limited the downsides limited to whatever you invest. So even though 1 investment did you know is almost a zero. Ah you still end up getting an average return of 17%. So even though you only had a 50% hit rate you still end up with a fantastic result because of the asymmetry. That compounding offers and that's just you know when you're putting together a portfolio and just thinking about individual stocks ah like like I am like many of the guests I have on are it's just amazing to think that. Ah you know you need to be humble and you don't have to be right one ah hundred percent of the time you know you can even be right 30 or 40% and still ah end up with a fantastic result if ah, you know, individual stock picking or you know picking investments is something that's in your wheelhouse and something you're interested in. Um, yeah, that's a 1 a.
27:27.10
Clay
Lesson I found really interesting in a recent interview at least.
27:29.76
ilm
We think back in ah remember when the Covid shutdowns happened. You know, ah sports were put on pause and traditional means of gambling were put on pause and then suddenly we had this massive rise of people utilizing. Ah you know, just investing Apps. And the rise of Meme stocks and people speculating the Market. What are your thoughts on that just like you know so anyone doing some investing versus how educated should you be when you and like what's the difference between investing in gambling and where does that where does that crossover take place.
28:08.41
Clay
Oh man. Yeah I mean ah, most people investing during that time period were essentially doing gambling but ah yeah I mean.
28:15.43
ilm
I Think yeah, there's a reason you saw this correlation of traditional gambling go down and rise of these memes stocks get in tandem. So sorry, keep going.
28:25.55
Clay
Yeah, yeah, I mean if if you're buying say individual stocks or you're buying options or whatever else then you need to obviously have a firm ah understanding of what the heck it is. You're buying so you're buying options you need to understand how a call and a put option works and understand that in some cases. There's 100 % downside in you know a month or two months or however long the duration is when it comes to stocks I mean for me I've I've just read so many. Ah, books on the subject that I can typically just look at a company and disqualify at least 95 % of them just because I know exactly what I want I know the type of kind of risk return profile I'm sort of looking looking for and um, yeah, just looking for. Just filtering out things like highly indebted companies or ah, maybe companies of a certain size I don't want to buy a lot of the mega mega caps oftentimes and looking at you know the managers and like are they just being compensated. You know. Ridiculous levels relative to how big the business is that's all too prevalent and then stock-based compensation is something that is all too prevalent and I mean for someone that's like just getting into this stuff. I mean you should most likely limit.
29:54.30
Clay
You know some of your individual picks to a small portion of your portfolio and like you know the tried and 2 true methods are what should be like the foundation of like most pupils Portfolios things like an index fund and s and p 500 fund things like that. Um, and yeah I mean. Yeah, if you it's really hard to you know distinguish between investing and gambling because it's just all totally subjective and you know there's only so much you can know about a company but um, under I will also mention that ah.
30:32.56
Clay
The the market is the always has a way of humbling people. So like you know, getting that experience of losing money in the markets is like so humbling and that happened to so many people in 2022 2021 after the covid rise and um. There's so many insight that can be gained from that too and almost all of the really good investors went through those periods of having to learn things the hard way rather than learning them from a book or a podcast.
31:02.54
ilm
Yeah there's there's some lesson you just got learned the hard way one of the lessons I learned several several years ago. Um I bought a company did really well it was it was nothing for the longest time just sat flat and ah. Yeah I checked my account and suddenly this thing within a week like five x did just incredible and ah and and unfortunately unfortunately at that point we were were we were within days of it reaching a place of long-term capital gains versus shortterm cap gains. It's like all right man like. I don't love this company I haven't loved in a bit. Um I won I want to go ahead and sell this. But if I literally just wait a few more days I'll be able to take advantage of long-term cap gain rates and ah, that'd be that'd be more fun I'm not make this somehow in the few days of waiting this company went bankrupt. Um, and that's a tough lesson of you know that's. Why did you buy something in the first place. Do you still have that thesis behind it that same conviction or is your conviction change. What are you anchoring this position in and ah what what is driving owning this and for me I let the the tax tail wag the investment dog I didn't like the investment any longer and I thought it was at that point overvalued and it turns out it was. Um, but again I let I let one way of thinking Trump a ah more sound way of thinking those lessons. Yeah that's one of those lessons you learned the hard way and ah man it's stuck with me. Yeah, just worked out perfectly to be absolutely painful.
32:28.14
Clay
Um, yeah yeah I think ah, another ah lesson I've sort of seen or learned is the companies that get people's attention often. Teams tend to be like just very risky picks like ah some of my. My favorite investors that I follow one of which is Chris Mayer wrote a book called hunterbaggers which is fantastic. 1 of his roles is he's not going to buy ah unprofitable company. You know because if a company can't make money from its operations then it either needs to ah, receive financing through debt or through equity and whenever. Ah, tough financial times hit. It's really hard to do those things and it's it puts the business in a really really tough position and you know if a business you know somehow has a way of like marketing itself and everyone's talking about it call it a a Zoom or whatever else, then there's. Probably a reason for that because the company might be issuing shares to essentially the public issuing shares to retail investors and then then these managers are getting extravat extravagant compensation packages and it's just ironic that the companies that people want to talk about oftentimes tend to. Be unprofitable and ah yeah, it's almost like a situation where it almost is gambling where you need like everything to go right in order to make any money and then you you know find so many of these unprofitable companies end up dropping eighty ninety percent ah during a market correction.
34:00.92
Clay
Um, yeah I always turn to ah I don't know if you've heard of Chuck Auckrey he has what he calls his 3 hree-legged stool approach of he wants to find a great business which means a great business to him is a business that earns a high return on capital. So. A business re invests in itself. It essentially earns a high return call it above average which be above like ten fifteen percent um many then he wants us great management team and a long runway for growth and that's essentially oftentimes what I'm looking for when I invest in a stock is like.
34:29.55
ilm
Know.
34:37.49
Clay
Does this business have a track record of performance. You know and oftentimes a stock continually outperforming the market is a sign of hey they're doing something right? kind of the thesis that winners tend to keep on winning. Um and you know if a business. Ah out competes its competitors over the past five or ten years there's probably a good reason. They're able to do that and it's going to be really hard for a business to jump in and disrupt that and then you know the management piece you want managers that have skin in the game and they yeah.
35:11.10
Clay
You know, essentially they're financially incentivized to have the share prices do well over the long run if they own shares for the past ten years and they've shown that they're effective managers and that's ah also a pretty good sign and then um, the long runway is also important too because ah, you know if a business can reinvest in a cell at. 20% over a really long period of time that's where you start to see that sort of compounding magic but this is definitely ah much different than a lot of the discussions. Ah, you're going to have about ah bitcoin and macro and all this stuff. So ah yeah, it's kind of the world I've been.
35:47.37
ilm
But yeah I think a lot of people when they think of financial advisor they picture me behind like ah, a wall of monitors and watching the stock market and that's like the last thing that I do so but it's still fun to think through and talk about and yeah I certainly pay attention and.
35:48.81
Clay
Diving into.
36:03.93
ilm
Am more macro-driven just how I work but also I like to come back and and look at look at companies I think I think look at individual companies can get you a good pulse on how the market's doing and also um I think there is a place of achieving Alpha I think it's possible Obviously people have done it. It's really difficult and I recognize I'm not smart enough to achieve alpha.
36:06.54
Clay
A.
36:17.76
Clay
Be here.
36:23.39
ilm
Ah regularly especially by switching strategies all the time. It's not going to happen. You better have high conviction over a prolonged period of time and in order to have a chance of doing this Otherwise you're sort of if it happens It's probably by luck um with with investing it's interesting I think we.
36:25.75
Clay
A.
36:35.53
Clay
A.
36:42.44
ilm
It's so easy to forget that when you invest in the market. You're literally buying companies and we we lose touch with that like I'm buying this stock and the stock's going to go up and that's where like you know value investing these sound principles investing. It's like does this company make money.
36:52.60
Clay
Yeah.
36:59.60
Clay
Yeah, yeah.
37:00.67
ilm
You know it's and it a lot of times. It's maybe not the sexy thing like if we put it back to a small business like ah you know it's a lot of times like these's people who are like blue colllar you know millionairereck store. It's it's a plumber. It's a welder I talked to someone recently who it's a machine was a machining company who recently sold to a a large institution.
37:10.65
Clay
And here.
37:20.30
ilm
And ah for all for a lot of money. Yeah, it's not. It's not the sexy work. It's companies that make money consistently over a proling period of time when you think of small businesses. That's what you want to own versus my grandparents. Um something they always talk to me about when it came to business was ah.
37:27.11
Clay
The hair is.
37:39.60
ilm
Not just playing business and they would say how they they were successful in owning a few different businesses. They mentioned how so many of their friends and people they would observe would would just play business and the moment they had a fun idea they would run with that fun idea and they would quickly think of like ooh. What do I want my my logo to look like and ooh those would be neat business cards.
37:49.34
Clay
Of a.
37:58.62
ilm
And that would be fun Swag to have thatd be that'd be cool and we could have this event. It's like but does that make money. How are you going to reach a place of profitability and ah you observe that like I I love talking with people about like business owners themselves and how do you reach a place of profitability. It pains me to see when I have friends who.
38:01.61
Clay
Right one.
38:17.24
ilm
You realize that man they're just playing business I don't think this is gonna survive not because they have a bad idea like was it 80% of businesses. Go out of business in their first year and then the of those that survive like 80 or 90% of those don't survive the next three years and I think a lot of times that's that's not because it was a bad idea. And I think a decent malmar. It's like dude you shouldn't store that in the first place like no one needs. Whatever sweaters for dogs like it's bad company but ah like the the the gri.
38:39.60
Clay
So.
38:47.23
Clay
You you made some great great points there I want to jump in on um, like you said you know stocks are real businesses like people are so detached when they're on their broker jab. You know, clicking by on some ticker that's gone up recently like Jim if if you were to go out and buy another financial planning firm which as I'm sure it's something you've thought about or something you've looked into doing I mean you'd look at you know how much has this firm earned in revenues over the past few years and how what are those earnings and you probably wouldn't be interested if it was deeply unprofitable. They're constantly issuing debt yet. So many people are going out buying something just because the stock price has gone up regardless of what you know regardless of how the actual business has performed and you know. In the short term. The stock price is essentially driven by just sentiment and hype and people jumping in and out and all these momentum traders but over the long term. It's it's the actual business that's going to drive the performance of the stock and you know just again like so many people thinking short term you know trying to. Chase you know whatever's gone up recently when you know when you get anchored in. You know these fundamental principles of you know what? what drives value creation is when you can you know start thinking about you know, achieving sustainable consistent long-term returns.
40:16.24
ilm
Yeah, it's are you are you building? are you building or or investing in a company that actually makes sense does it is it beneficial to people is it profitable is it sustainable um is it does have a moat. And ah if you can't check those boxes. What are you buying? You're probably buying hype if you're building a business. That's like that you're probably just playing business. Um, again, if we're just looking at a small business side of things I think a lot of the lot of business I run into that failed failed again. Not because it was a bad idea not because they were making. You know, whatever like I mentioned earlier like sweaters for dogs or something like this probably that's like that's a bad idea. That's a bad business. Don't start it or you know something like that goofy. It's like no, that's a good business but a lot times those fail not because it was a bad business idea but because they were caught up in the wrong things they they wanted to play business. Or because their personal financial side of things was not able to support and sustain their business like ah when when I started this my financial planning company. We we committed to not taking any income for minimally 1 year because we had to make sure that we had revenue to put back in the business. there's ah there's a little strip mall down the street from my house that has an insane turnover of restaurants and over probably like a four month period there is probably 5 or 6 restaurants i't some of those restaurants literally were there for two weeks which is incredible if I go to a restaurant Kindra and I go on a date and we love that restaurant and say ooh I want that to be our new date spot.
41:45.51
ilm
We don't go on dates twice a week. So even if even if they get someone who goes to the restaurant and they love it. You don't they're not going to get the repeat business like I don't understand these people put up a sign and read the kitchen all that stuff and literally what gave themselves two weeks of ah two weeks of operating capital like.
41:51.10
Clay
A.
42:03.71
ilm
You could have been the best restaurant restaurant ever. But they didn't have the personal side of things to sustain it. They were. They didn't think through this so again I think this this overlaps with with large businesses you can invest in like what are you actually building here. Um is a are they playing business are they um you know is it is it. Built up on hype. That's where I mean yeah, there's this detachment of small business. This is detachment of like wow your color scheme on your business cards looks fantastic and that's exciting for a moment then you realize it's just a bad service or product same thing with a large business. You know it's like oh wow that that ticker is doing well, you should go buy this ticker. It's like well what's the company. I don't know like I can't remember what it was but I do remember a case several years back where there was 2 companies that very similar stock tickers and suddenly the one that was the different one just skyrocketed. No one knew why? no one knew why this company it was such an obscure company.
42:50.84
Clay
Oh yeah.
42:59.52
ilm
But ah, they realized like oh my goodness because it was one letter off of this other one. So everyone was buying this company. No one. No one knew what it was no yeah, that's.
43:09.43
Clay
Well, ah like when the coronavirus hit ah sales of Corona just like skyrocketed you know, just ah, there's so many weird things that can happen and yeah, like you mentioned sometimes people go out and buy the wrong ticker when they realize that like.
43:15.59
ilm
That.
43:26.70
Clay
Big news hit a specific company but they go yeah just crazy things I'm sure you've seen it in terms of the stock market.
43:31.82
ilm
Um, ah it comes it really enforces people are people are funny and ah yeah, we're we're emotional oftentimes illogical beings and ah.
43:45.26
Clay
Is in.
43:47.54
ilm
Can lead to some fun stories. Not so fun if you're on the receiving end. Um, but yeah, that's where it helps also to take a step back and not not get too wrapped up in the moment and then also being able to to all right that hurtrd a lot What can I learn from this and ah I think if you can get both of those. You'll you'll survive another day to keep swinging and ah unfortunately it is. It's really sad to think through the people who um, who don't clean. Those 2 things who get wrapped up like this is too devastating I can't can't keep going. You know that's that's 1 reason one of the biggest reasons I got into working in personal finances. Money is the number one cause a divorce every year The American Psychologist Psychology Association has done a poll money's been the number one cause of divorce and it's also one of the top causes of personal stress and suicide. It's like man like if you allow this thing to bog you down and to beat you up and pull you apart like that's sad.
44:28.92
Clay
Um, and.
44:44.28
ilm
It's common. Um, but you have to Zoom out like really, what's going on here and ah, you know like a few weeks ago I I've been I've been sprinting really hard for several years but 8 years I've just been running really really hard and it sort of hit me recently. So ah.
44:44.51
Clay
Oh okay.
45:02.91
ilm
Like two weeks ago I realized I felt like force gump you don't force Gump he just he just takes off running. He felt like running you just start running and he does this for a long time and ah eventually one day he just stops. He's like I'm pretty tired I'm going to go home now that hit me like two weeks ago and I was like man I'm really tired. I talking to Kindra one night and this it sort of led to a I don't get stress very often, but it led to a brief moment of stress and kindra and I were laying in bed. It was like hey babe like you've got my back right? She like yeah I like good or bad. She's like did you do something wrong I like no I just sometimes I just need and.
45:27.90
Clay
And.
45:42.60
ilm
I Just wanted to be reassured and ah yeah, zooming out like seeing my wife my kids It's like you know what? if something goes bad here like we'll be okay and I think there's where even stepping back and it's like yeah doing you know people people pay me to do to take care of their money. It's really important but I care about.
45:42.63
Clay
And.
46:00.18
ilm
Care about my clients more than I care about their money. Obviously I mean I've I've studied really hard and I work in this a lot to do well with their money and to care about it. But I care about people and like it's really important you know going back to these like anchoring and why are you doing things I've had so many conversations I I probably worked with about I would I would guess about 40000
46:11.41
Clay
Um, a.
46:19.28
ilm
Probably a little bit higher than that now people over the years with their money and it's really sad how many people even more successful financially but missed the whole Mark with why they wanted to do it and you have to go back and revisit that like Kenra and I we have Kinder's my wife we have we have four young kids.
46:28.69
Clay
I think.
46:35.95
ilm
Like yeah, we want to do really we want to. We want to do well financially we want to be able to give generously and spend time with each other and um, those sorts of things. It's important for us. But if I neglect if I say hey I want to be able to retire early so I can go backpacking with my kids before they're old and have jobs and can't take time off work. Want to have money so I can do that whatever. But then I sacrifice my children on the altar of having future financial financial success like Success. What's the point you know, like right now. It's like hey dad can you read to me. It's like sorry son I got to go to work so I can spend time with you later. It's like oh gosh you missed the whole point. Anyways.
46:56.73
Clay
I mean.
47:12.95
ilm
And ah, yeah, it's where you know thinking through this from a from an investing investing perspective like why are you buying what you're buying has that thesis changed if so like how's that changing with you but also from a life perspective. Why are you doing the things you're doing has that thesis changed. Um if so or if not you better you better dig back like. Again and not just think through the the base level like I'm I'm buying the same because of service level reason like why? Why are you buying this? Why are you making this decision and I think that people would do a lot of good by asking why more both on investing in bigger picture.
47:47.33
Clay
Yeah I recently had a shane parish on our show and I can't remember the exact quote he had but it was like you know it's 1 thing to achieve what you set out to achieve but it's ah it's a whole nother thing that people maybe. Sometimes don't think about where did you are you working to achieve something that you actually want to achieve you know we feel good about achieving something but you know if you want to you know achieve some sort of net worth goal and you know. Hey that's cool and not that many people can you know, maybe achieve that level of wealth but it come at a sacrifice to all these other things because um I think people think about money so often and set kind of money goals because you know something you can point to and it's a number. That you can like see you either hit it or you don't hit it. But then there's so many other things that aren't really quantifiable whether that be you know, spending time with your kids spending time with your wife um and doing those other things that are also important you know I asked Shane he's very successful with his business. Business has finances and such and you know him Shane and then preston pitch is the same way where you ask them? What's important to them and they just say they're family and like you know when you look at someone like them that says you know money is not the most important thing obviously it is important.
49:12.99
Clay
But there's many other things in life that are ah are likely more important to most people.
49:19.97
ilm
Well money one of my a vague definition of money I would put on it is a means of communicating storing and transferring value across space and time and I think a big problem that we have with money is the communication aspect. And I think that's a big reason that you have divorce and money so highly related is because money is meant to communicate what's important to you and suddenly if your money is being spent on 1 thing and your spouse thinks that money should be spent on other things you're saying with where your checkbook's going is this is important to me.
49:47.34
Clay
A.
49:57.65
ilm
Versus this other thing and suddenly like oh well, that's you know you're you're putting out these signals of value and you are tangibly voting What value is you know what? what you place value and I think if you yeah again, show me like show me your your calendar and your checkbook and I'll tell you what what? you're voting.
50:10.10
Clay
Um, you.
50:14.77
Clay
A a.
50:15.90
ilm
With your resources are important for you and unfortunately again, there's a lot of people have things that are important to them but their resources their time their money their talents are not being used in tandem with where their heart or their mind or their words would say it's important to them. That's a lot of people don't realize that's til it's too late like man I really want to you know how many people on their deathbed are like I wish I've made more money versus like I wish I would have spent more time with my kids. It's like dude like make that vote now and ah yeah, that's yeah, the purpose of a goal is to inform the best next step. It's not to It's not to corner you in to have to continue to pursue this one thing. Um I understand like your goals will change like Clay I bet your your goals today are different than they were five years ago and 5 years from today. They'll probably be different than they were than where they are right now that's fine. That's expected and again the purpose of a goal is not to say like I have to do this thing now. That that would be sad if you feel I think that's why a lot of people don't set goals is they feel if they do suddenly they are pigeonhoed into doing this one thing that might seem obscure in a few years and if they don't they didn't reach their goals when setting a goal and saying you know what? I'm taking a guess as far what as far as what I want but man. Think this is what I want right now I will start pursuing this um and taking action that aligns with this and real It's really important and I believe is to make sure that you're asking the y behind a goal I want to make x dollars y because I want to be able to have a nice house. Y.
51:49.44
ilm
Oh man because I want to be able to entertain people why because it's important that my kids are around that we spend more time with them like oh so what? you just told me in all of that is you want to make sure that you have time with your kids and your family The house is just a means of facilitating those moments and memories and the money is just a means of obtaining the house. But really, what we're after here is moments and memories with your kids like how do we pursue that and yeah, allowing money to serve those things but not losing track of what you? What ultimately said is important to you and that's I know we're we're way off of talking through company valuations and stocks. But again we've as we yeah we go through these conversations like this really comes back to and like. Yeah, let the resources serve these other things.
52:29.84
Clay
Yeah, when it comes to the company stuff like the community I'm running like I tell people that join like you don't have to be analyzing individual companies. A lot of times you can hit your financial goals with just these basic you know investment foundational principles. But um, these people just absolutely love this stuff and I I Enjoy. Ah yeah, chatting through it with them too. But um to your point about ah you know money as a means to communicating value. Um.
53:04.78
Clay
My conversation. It reminds me of my conversation with Shane Parrish and how so many of the decisions that people make are like totally unconscious and it's driven by like almost like our biological hard hardwiring like people will but go out and buy like this expensive car because um, it. Like shows status and it shows it like gives them the approval of others and it's like a very external viewpoint. But if you get down to like what it is do. You truly want and you know how can you use money to you know facilitate that ah that relationship between what it is. You're actually. You know, spending that money on versus what it is you truly value and I think it's also important not to like over analyze it like I'm not I'm definitely not someone that like has a budget and like has to stick to it and like you know you know be very close and like what it is I budget and like what it is I actually end up spending. It's just like. Being mindful of the decisions you're making I think is just so important and but not like overdoing it too. It was just like so much of a balancing act to it too.
54:13.72
ilm
Um, yeah, it's allowing your you like ah man I came who was I heard on a podcast years ago. This lady she said that she she keeps her needs small so her wants can be outrageous and I thought that was pretty cool like again, it's.
54:32.70
ilm
Ah, everything you do in life is there's tradeoffs in everything you do and you are making decisions consciously or subconsciously to choose something and there's opportunity costs with everything and ah you you. Really a big part of this is being cognizant of where what am I voting for right now with my time and my money and my relationships and my talents. what's the opportunity cost of this I'm working in a job I hate okay and I wish I could start a business okay well what's the opportunity cost of not trying that. Um you know I um i. I'm broke and stressed but my dollars are being spent on this other thing. That's where I'm not going to be like a cliche financial advisor who's like you should make your own coffee I make me own coffee with a really nice coffee machine I have 2 nice coffee machines one at my house and 1 at my office because I like making good coffee. It's way better than coffee I can get the coffee shop right? below my office is on top of 2 coffee shops. Bought my own espresso machine because it's a lot better and I I save a fortune I can justify it ultimately with how much how many espressas I drink a day. Um, but yeah, I'm not going to sit here and say like don't buy coffee but like think through like what is important to you I remember years ago I was talking with different financial advising firms.
55:34.34
Clay
Sit.
55:47.17
ilm
And there's a few companies. There are two companies I went through this long interview process and eventually went to lunch like basically got the job and went to lunch with the owners and on a couple of occasions this happened I pull up I was driving sort of all beat up Nissan at the time had a bumper that was. Not the not the prettiest sight to see now pop to lunch and ah, you know we'd start talking. It was like hey Jim you know when you work here like what we're doing is we're trying to convey the sense of success financial success and wealth. So we really would want you to. Drive something nicer Alexis or a g wagon that's going to portray financial success and at that point I knew I could not work there because my job is not to portray a sense of financial success. My my job is to help people use their money in the most efficient and effective manner to serve what's important within them life and for me driving a fancy car is not important. Having more time to spend my kids is way more important. Why would I drain and buy buy this thing that's going to have me have this massive car note when instead I can have that where I I don't have this this stress of having to go to work all the time or not being able to go on this vacation. It's like man like that's again, if we have to. Can peel back and say why might why do I have this habit. Why am I doing this thing if it means that you're buying coffee orre going to brunch and that's really important to that's awesome if. It's I do this thing out of autopilot. It's like well let's just stop and let's think let's think think through it and ah yeah, if we can just become aware I think it'd be.
57:07.71
Clay
Significant.
57:12.29
ilm
Really really helpful with with what we're doing and again like just being aware for yourself, but also on a relationship side of things like I remember a few years ago I met with a family and I found out after multiple meetings that I was actually a laditch effort ditch effort before they got a divorce. They'd been fighting about money for years. And they thought talk we'll we'll talk with a financial planner and what we realized one of our meetings. They just broke down crying and we realized that they fought about money all the time and the last thing that came up was they were. They're on vacation at Disney and ah the wife she she wanted to go to Disney but like make the sandwiches to take.
57:41.60
Clay
The.
57:49.30
ilm
And ah, no souvenirs and just just experienced Disney itself. But no, no other things and ah the husband on the other hand like while you're there. You got to get the big ears or whatever it is and the ah the turkey leg and the funnel cakes and all of the stuff and they were bickering the whole time. Like you're so cheap. Oh well, you just you're drained all over money what we realized though was taking a step back from this place of emotion-driven hype saying like well why? Why do you want this and for for one for the for for the wife. It was well gosh like if we if we enjoy the simple thing of being here. Ah, don't just lavishly spend on these other things we could go on a second vacation and man I really want to that was really fun but I want to do these other things with the kids as well and with you as well. I would love that and the husband's perspective was look I didn't get I didn't grow up going on trips. So if we're going to be here I want to do it all the way because I really want this to be a special time. So it's sad because they're both coming from this this place of I enjoy this I enjoy being with you and our family and I want to make the most of it. They're just communicating it in different ways and their dollars were saying being represented in different manners and it was it was again. There was mixed signals mix communication.
58:49.53
Clay
A.
59:03.19
ilm
By how their dollars being spent if it could step back and say look this is important. There's a book that Kenra and I read few years ago together it's called the ah the strengths based marriage and as by it's ah based off of strengths finders have you heard of strengths finders clay. Okay, yeah, it's it's a.
59:06.12
Clay
Um.
59:15.89
Clay
Um, yeah.
59:21.28
ilm
Sort of personality test and it has like 20 ranks like your top strengths through like your weaknesses in a sense and ah, there's a book the husband and wife like Kenjura and I both did this strengths finders test and there's this marriage book you go through to talk through like how your strengths and weaknesses play off each other and like. The good part of the strength each strength has its true strength and then has this like false narrative associated with it this way it can rise up poorly and that was a great thing because like I live in the future like all my strengths were like planning futuristic like long-term kinders are all about optimizing today.
59:59.10
Clay
In.
01:00:00.37
ilm
And I live in the future and both of us came back and like you know she thinks I'm cheap. But for me I I look at this as like no I I want to make sure we're able to do this long term and I look at her like she loves spending money if she does but ah, it's like no I want to make the most of this now it so having a.
01:00:08.30
Clay
Um.
01:00:14.22
Clay
That.
01:00:19.34
ilm
A context to place. These conversations is really helpful. Um, yeah, long rant.
01:00:19.56
Clay
Um, what what you mentioned there about ah earlier about the job where they said oh you have to portray you know this status and this level of wealth. Think it's amazing. How ah what that tells you about like someone who acts in that manner. You know when you could analyze a company and say what are the managers focusing their time and energy on you could look at manager in your own business. You know where are they focusing. Their time and energy energy and I think so many people kind of go off into entrepreneurship because they just can't find an environment that like suits you know what their values are and what you know how they want to spend their time. How do they? How do they want to help people or they don't want to play these political. Type games and I think that's probably 1 of the reasons why you ended up going and you know starting your own business because you know just the avenues that opens up for you and how you can design your life. However, you want and then you can you know. Fulfilled what you value even at an even higher level in terms of your family and your long-term financial rules. Um, yeah I think it's just sort of amazing how there's this sort of a balancing act within our capitalistic society where you know these bureaucratic organizations end up.
01:01:47.88
Clay
Growing and they create these political games as a result of it. Um, almost ah, unintentionally in some ways and then you know it leads to someone like you to take advantage of that opportunity and like fill the gap in the market where it's not being met where you're not trying to go out and get a financial advisor that. Ah, it's flaunting their wealth or flyinging their car and such. So Yeah I Love that that you told that story.
01:02:14.76
ilm
Clay. Do you? Ah you have any? Yeah We've been. We've been everywhere today. Um, do you have any parting thoughts any yeah, any episodes like oh man, you should be ever should go listen to this conversation or a book or yeah, any anything on your mind that you'd you'd want to share that and. Gadash you about.
01:02:34.84
Clay
Yeah I would say ah just like education is just like so so important it doesn't even have to be my podcast or any other podcast just like getting educated on. Yeah, if you're interested in learning about investing in stocks or bitcoin or whatever else. Just. Like picking up books and like picking a podcast is like so so important and um, you know as I mentioned kind of towards beginning is just like being humble in what it is You think you know like beginners when they get into anything it feels like they make these very simple assumptions and they. Essentially get themselves and into trouble by taking these sort of mental shortcuts on how the world works or how how they think the world works. Um, but yeah education is just like so so important you know I'm sure it's a foundational sort of.. It's a foundation of you know what's led to your success gym and all all the things you've built and ah yeah, and then just ah going out and trying to.
01:03:39.38
Clay
You know, do it. It do whatever it is. You're trying to do whether it be. You know, investing starting a business excel in your career and then just on top of that education from the books and the podcast just learning from your own experiences is ah all part of the journey and it just makes it all fun. But yeah, if you want to learn about investing ah check out, we study billionaires you might. Find a thing or 2 That's interesting.
01:04:03.60
ilm
It's good. Good little show. hopefully yeah hopefully all'll pick up a good good audience. Ah eventually, we'll turn around now I noticed when I was recording with ah with Preston I I love he done. Hed un flaunted but I saw in the background in the in the in the corner you saw the ah the Youtube whatever. Color it was the big plaque of x-mol listeners. It's amazing. What y'all have done there and the amount of people y'all reach the different shows and the community you're building. It's awesome stuff and yeah I've listened to countless hours of you guys and of your podcast and getting even just getting hang out with you and ah.
01:04:20.50
Clay
Oh yeah.
01:04:37.21
Clay
Yeah.
01:04:38.50
ilm
Clay and I we roomed in ah Miami years ago for the bitcoin conference. We accidentally ah got a terrible hotel right in the party district of South Beach Miami so that was fun of ah the ah the guy blaring was like we will rock you at like 2 in the morning you're I'm a mile away. Um, and then yeah little different experience last Mark until you eye in absolute natural bliss. Um, so yeah I love getting to spend time with you and ah keep tabs on you through your podcasts appreciate it. Awesome! ah.
01:05:10.72
Clay
Yeah, Jim you've been a absolute blessing in my life and ah right when I ah right when I joined tip I got connected with you. You know it was almost by fate and we've been connected ever since so you're a great friend and it's great to know you.
01:05:27.20
ilm
Thanks for coming on Clay I appreciate it.
01:05:30.46
Clay
You bet my pleasure.
